Unpopular Opinions Thread

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Re: Unpopular Opinions Thread

Postby Mad_Capsule » Mon Apr 09, 2012 10:34 pm

hybrid theorist wrote:
Mad_Capsule wrote:My opinion just happens to be I think killing people is wrong and sugarcoating the situations is just as bad, I didn't realise it was such an unpopular one :lol:

and if everyone thought that way, the world would be fine.

I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, but it sounds like you're saying we shouldn't have fought a war against Nazi Germany?

Or just not bombed German civilians? which is a line of logic that doesn't really work, because most of the soldiers killed were conscripts, who were essentially civilians as well, so we couldn't have shot at soldiers in the trenches, or bomber crews, or whatever. Essentially down to the level of not fighting at all.


Well you are putting words into my mouth because that's not what I said. I just don't think there is a situation where killing another human being is right, that is black and white to me. The grey area only occurs when people say 'yeah killing is bad UNLESS *insert situation*' because everyone has a different view on what that situation is and how far it has to go before it's considered 'right' to murder someone. I know you're doing the whole 'but look at the big picture' angle but I think it's possible to avoid these situations with a little less of the power hungry attitude that is looked upon so highly in this society. And whilst looking at the big picture you're missing the point. I don't think it is ever right to kill another person. It's like what Houston says, as the number of deaths increase the humanity of the situation is removed and it just becomes a number.
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Re: Unpopular Opinions Thread

Postby mrpaul » Mon Apr 09, 2012 10:45 pm

Mad_Capsule wrote:I know you're doing the whole 'but look at the big picture' angle


But unfortunately the big picture is not just an 'angle' but the reality of the world we live in.
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Re: Unpopular Opinions Thread

Postby hybrid theorist » Mon Apr 09, 2012 11:01 pm

Mad_Capsule wrote:Well you are putting words into my mouth because that's not what I said. I just don't think there is a situation where killing another human being is right, that is black and white to me.

so if it was really 100% black and white, you'd say it was wrong to kill a man who was holding a gun in front of a class of 7 year olds and has started to shoot them?

Again, not trying to put words in your mouth, trying to see your point of view. you're saying it's black and white, it's 100% never justified, so I'm trying to think of the most clear cut example of when that wouldn't be the case, and surely it would have to be justified.

Also you never answered my other point, do you think that the war against Nazi Germany (and the subsequent deaths of civilians on their side of the conflict) was wrong?
Don't want to go all Godwins Law on this, but we were talking about WW2 anyway, I think it's justified :lol:
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Re: Unpopular Opinions Thread

Postby Mad_Capsule » Mon Apr 09, 2012 11:11 pm

Yeah I'd say it was wrong on both accounts. But then the war wasn't simply the Germans saying 'hmmm i fancy killing a bunch of people' there was a hell of a lot more involved on both sides.

mrpaul wrote:
Mad_Capsule wrote:I know you're doing the whole 'but look at the big picture' angle


But unfortunately the big picture is not just an 'angle' but the reality of the world we live in.


I'm not denying reality. Society is what we make it, reality isn't (well after a fashion it is but that's a whole new argument). Just because we live in a world when killing is acceptable doesn't mean I have to like it and I don't believe it's the only option.
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Re: Unpopular Opinions Thread

Postby hybrid theorist » Mon Apr 09, 2012 11:27 pm

Mad_Capsule wrote:Yeah I'd say it was wrong on both accounts. But then the war wasn't simply the Germans saying 'hmmm i fancy killing a bunch of people' there was a hell of a lot more involved on both sides.

Fair enough then. If that's your opinion, I think we'd simply have to agree to disagree.

and yeah, there was a lot more to it than "lets kill some people", there's a lot more to it than that, but really, that's the point. the world isn't working in ideals.
Or at least the war was. Realistically the holocaust wasn't far from "lets kill a bunch of people"
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Re: Unpopular Opinions Thread

Postby kazz » Tue Apr 10, 2012 4:09 am

i know this is not quite as dramatic as your discussion but i think that people sometimes create race issues out of thin air.

mcdonalds, (i think. the story is on sky news website), made several adverts showing off their new wraps. one of which is a fried chicken wrap. there are several celebrities each starring in an advert.

so... the one containing mary j blige has been pulled cause it is a black woman advertising fried chicken.

i dont see what the problem is. i dont think it is racist at all. it is not as if they have her on a plantation in south carolina with an accent or anything. and she obviously didnt find it offensive or she wouldnt have done it. she also got paid for it. so what is the big deal.

i honestly think sometimes people just create an issue (racism, religon, etc) so that they have something to be outraged about.

:?
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Re: Unpopular Opinions Thread

Postby Mad_Capsule » Tue Apr 10, 2012 10:47 am

Well if it was done in America eventually someone would have sued someone over it :lol: it's like having to change the princess in that disney movie Princess and the Frog because she was a scullery maid and was black... like Cinderella except black so it's racist of course.
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Re: Unpopular Opinions Thread

Postby Phate » Tue Apr 10, 2012 10:57 am

kazz wrote:i know this is not quite as dramatic as your discussion but i think that people sometimes create race issues out of thin air.

mcdonalds, (i think. the story is on sky news website), made several adverts showing off their new wraps. one of which is a fried chicken wrap. there are several celebrities each starring in an advert.

so... the one containing mary j blige has been pulled cause it is a black woman advertising fried chicken.

i dont see what the problem is. i dont think it is racist at all. it is not as if they have her on a plantation in south carolina with an accent or anything. and she obviously didnt find it offensive or she wouldnt have done it. she also got paid for it. so what is the big deal.

i honestly think sometimes people just create an issue (racism, religon, etc) so that they have something to be outraged about.

:?


So it would have been racist if she had an accent from the deep south?
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Re: Unpopular Opinions Thread

Postby ThornDavis » Tue Apr 10, 2012 11:17 am

Phate wrote:
kazz wrote:i know this is not quite as dramatic as your discussion but i think that people sometimes create race issues out of thin air.

mcdonalds, (i think. the story is on sky news website), made several adverts showing off their new wraps. one of which is a fried chicken wrap. there are several celebrities each starring in an advert.

so... the one containing mary j blige has been pulled cause it is a black woman advertising fried chicken.

i dont see what the problem is. i dont think it is racist at all. it is not as if they have her on a plantation in south carolina with an accent or anything. and she obviously didnt find it offensive or she wouldnt have done it. she also got paid for it. so what is the big deal.

i honestly think sometimes people just create an issue (racism, religon, etc) so that they have something to be outraged about.

:?


So it would have been racist if she had an accent from the deep south?


It would have evoked a particular stereotype to a greater degree.

--

Either way, it's probably dangerous to use adverts as a thermometer for public sensitivities, because advertisers themselves are so sensitive to the idea that they may lose a single sale because of a misjudged campaign, so they can be very quick to pull a campaign that isn't particularly problematic. It doesn't have to be a mega sh!tstorm. If a couple of people say "A black woman gurning at a fried chicken wrap? Seriously?" then McDonalds may panic and pull the campaign, but that doesn't mean that the general population is over-sensitive, just that McDonalds is.

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Re: Unpopular Opinions Thread

Postby houston404 » Tue Apr 10, 2012 12:15 pm

kazz wrote:i know this is not quite as dramatic as your discussion but i think that people sometimes create race issues out of thin air.

mcdonalds, (i think. the story is on sky news website), made several adverts showing off their new wraps. one of which is a fried chicken wrap. there are several celebrities each starring in an advert.

so... the one containing mary j blige has been pulled cause it is a black woman advertising fried chicken.

i dont see what the problem is. i dont think it is racist at all. it is not as if they have her on a plantation in south carolina with an accent or anything. and she obviously didnt find it offensive or she wouldnt have done it. she also got paid for it. so what is the big deal.
i honestly think sometimes people just create an issue (racism, religon, etc) so that they have something to be outraged about.

:?


I think thats the most important part. If Blige was willing to take the roll on and found no problem with it, then theres no problem really. If someone of the supposed victim group is willing to take on a role that supposedly stereotypes then its that person who is to blame for any problems and not McDonald's since they can say "well this person found it ok".
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Re: Unpopular Opinions Thread

Postby maschera » Tue Apr 10, 2012 12:34 pm

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Re: Unpopular Opinions Thread

Postby hybrid theorist » Tue Apr 10, 2012 12:36 pm

I really dunno about that. Just cos one person doesn't find it offensive doesn't mean nobody has a right to. Can't think of any good examples off the top of my head, but NOFX (who released the album "white trash two heebs and a bean") tell jokes about each others heritage.
"hey Mike, why did Hitler kill himself? He saw his gas bill!"

I don't think you can just say "well Mike is Jewish and wasn't offended, therefore nobody is allowed to be."

Having said that, I think Davis is right, its a storm in a teacup because people are worried that anything could possibly offend soneone else.
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Re: Unpopular Opinions Thread

Postby maschera » Tue Apr 10, 2012 12:40 pm

That's because if you cause "sufficient" offence (e.g. Liam Stacey) then you have a lawsuit on your hands. ohoho
Context and tone are irrelevant if there are enough dweebs to take it seriously.
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Re: Unpopular Opinions Thread

Postby ThornDavis » Tue Apr 10, 2012 12:57 pm

That Stephen Fry quote is great and everything, except that he's very quick to voice his offence when it suits him, being a rallying voice against Jan Moir for writing an article about Stephen Gately that he took offence at for its homophobia.

So his quote should read "Saying 'I'm offended' is nothing more than a whine, except when I do it because my inflated sense of self worth allows me to blot out this cognitive dissonance dispite the fact that I'm a fat f---king hypocrite who has chosen to fully invest in a strange phenomon over the past ten years where I, a middle-brow comedian with a half-dozen unreadable novels to my name and an obssession with apple products, have been elevated the position where people genuinely seem to believe that I'm a wit and social commentator of the calibre of Oscar Wilde and George Bernard Shaw, despite the fact that every idea that dribbles from my wobbling lips is slathered in insincerity and unnecessary verbiage."

I don't know whether all that would fit on the picture, though. Not that I agree with Jan Moir, or would defend her, but he can't just say "Oh this attitude is ridiculous except when I happen to agree with it".

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Re: Unpopular Opinions Thread

Postby maschera » Tue Apr 10, 2012 1:06 pm

Yes he's a hypocrite if he ever claims that he doesn't ever whine. Slating something and doing it yourself is ohk if you don't then claim to be perfect. On top of that I think the quote refers to the more trivial matters that people find offensive. Based on the principle that the moment somebody is offended - it is automatically offensive...it is too difficult to give a consensus on what is rightfully offensive and what isn't because offence is subjective.
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Re: Unpopular Opinions Thread

Postby Mad_Capsule » Tue Apr 10, 2012 1:15 pm

maschera wrote:Yes he's a hypocrite if he ever claims that he doesn't ever whine. Slating something and doing it yourself is ohk if you don't then claim to be perfect. On top of that I think the quote refers to the more trivial matters that people find offensive. Based on the principle that the moment somebody is offended - it is automatically offensive...it is too difficult to give a consensus on what is rightfully offensive and what isn't because offence is subjective.
I don't know if anything I'm saying today makes sense because my brain is Fryed from all my essays...........o-ho!


Such as people getting offended by spitting in public and saying it should be illegal. They are the pathetic whiners he is talking about, not people that hear a comment like 'the Nazis had the right idea' and find it rather disrespectful.
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Re: Unpopular Opinions Thread

Postby mrpaul » Tue Apr 10, 2012 1:17 pm

Egg fried brain?
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Re: Unpopular Opinions Thread

Postby maschera » Tue Apr 10, 2012 1:20 pm

Oh you witty thang :romance-inlove:
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Re: Unpopular Opinions Thread

Postby hybrid theorist » Tue Apr 10, 2012 2:04 pm

I think there's a huge problem with people taking offense just because it suits them for other reasons.

"I think Clarkson is a dickhead, so I'll say I'm offended by his 'shoot them all' joke". I defy anybody who's heard/seen the full quote to have been truly offended by it. It wasn't even a dismissive "oh, I don't care, shoot them all" statement (that would have been a clear joke anyway), it was a joke about BBC impartiality.

Robert De Nero made some joke at a president Obama fundraiser about how "America wasn't ready for a white president just yet" or something, and all Obamas opponents jumped all over it, not because any of them were actually offended, but because they thought they could score political points or embarrass Obama by proxy.
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Re: Unpopular Opinions Thread

Postby Mad_Capsule » Tue Apr 10, 2012 2:13 pm

hybrid theorist wrote:I think there's a huge problem with people taking offense just because it suits them for other reasons.

"I think Clarkson is a dickhead, so I'll say I'm offended by his 'shoot them all' joke". I defy anybody who's heard/seen the full quote to have been truly offended by it. It wasn't even a dismissive "oh, I don't care, shoot them all" statement (that would have been a clear joke anyway), it was a joke about BBC impartiality.


I saw the whole thing and I was offended, but I've watched and read enough of him to know he's a racist, homophobic, misogynist prick anyway so wasn't that surprised. But that's because my family actually work for a living rather than driving around cars for fun so I understand why it's hard for him to understand why people would be upset by cuts while the rich are getting taxed less, it does require thinking about others as not beneath himself afterall. People are allowed to be offended, it's stupid to say they aren't. Why do you have a problem with people being offended by things you think aren't offensive? Does it offend you? It's only when they think the fact that they're offended means others should change their behaviour to suit them.
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Re: Unpopular Opinions Thread

Postby ThornDavis » Tue Apr 10, 2012 2:26 pm

The big problem with that Clarkson furore was that it allowed him to assume the mantle of "embattled defender of free thinking" in place of the more accurate "Right-wing ignoramus with a cow-pat for a face".

In practice, though I'd be guilty of what Hybrid Theorist talks about - I'd happily feign offence to something like that if there was a chance it would create genuine problems for someone like Clarkson.

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Re: Unpopular Opinions Thread

Postby hybrid theorist » Tue Apr 10, 2012 2:40 pm

Mad_Capsule wrote:
hybrid theorist wrote:I think there's a huge problem with people taking offense just because it suits them for other reasons.

"I think Clarkson is a dickhead, so I'll say I'm offended by his 'shoot them all' joke". I defy anybody who's heard/seen the full quote to have been truly offended by it. It wasn't even a dismissive "oh, I don't care, shoot them all" statement (that would have been a clear joke anyway), it was a joke about BBC impartiality.

I saw the whole thing and I was offended, but I've watched and read enough of him to know he's a racist, homophobic, misogynist prick anyway so wasn't that surprised. But that's because my family actually work for a living rather than driving around cars for fun so I understand why it's hard for him to understand why people would be upset by cuts while the rich are getting taxed less, it does require thinking about others as not beneath himself afterall. People are allowed to be offended, it's stupid to say they aren't. Why do you have a problem with people being offended by things you think aren't offensive? Does it offend you? It's only when they think the fact that they're offended means others should change their behaviour to suit them.

I heard the (edited) quote, and thought "thats a bit much, even for Clarkson". But when I read the full thing, I really struggle to see what anyone found offensive.

My assumption was that everyone who'd been offended was in the same boat as me originally, had heard it taken out of context and got the wrong end of the stick/jumped to conclusions. If you're saying you actually were offended, fine, I've no reason to doubt you were, I'm just pretty surprised.

Similarly, off the top of my head, I've seen on panel shows Andy Parsons imply that George W Bush should have been assassinated, Frankie Boyle say that when Thatcher dies her grave should have a urinal installed, and Jo Brand state that she'd be quite happy if all the bankers were rounded up and shot. All got rounds of applause from the audience. I've no doubt at least some of the people "offended" by Clarkson thought that specifically saying people they're not a fan of being shot is ok, but making a joke about public sector workers being shot isn't ok.
(Im not putting you in inverted commas btw, as you actually were offended)
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Re: Unpopular Opinions Thread

Postby ThornDavis » Tue Apr 10, 2012 2:47 pm

The big difference is that in one instance you're talking about people who exploited global capitalism to further their own ends, and in the other you're talking about the people who are being crushed under that boot of global capitalism.

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Re: Unpopular Opinions Thread

Postby hybrid theorist » Tue Apr 10, 2012 2:54 pm

ThornDavis wrote:The big difference is that in one instance you're talking about people who exploited global capitalism to further their own ends, and in the other you're talking about the people who are being crushed under that boot of global capitalism.

ALL bankers exploited global capitalism and made it shitty for the rest of us? Each and every one of them fucked things up individually? Can't remember who said the quote about "99% of lawyers giving the 1% a bad name", maybe that applies here.

Honestly, I think its pretty offensive to say "you're a banker, therefore you MUST be a terrible person, and worthy of death." Or at least no more offensive than saying "as we've said some nice things about the strikers, now I've got to say they should all be shot".

(If clarification is needed, I think bankers in general are cunts and public sector workers had some legitimate grievances, I'm not on the bankers side here any more than the people defending Liam Staceys right to free speech/be a rat-a-tat-tat are on his)
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Re: Unpopular Opinions Thread

Postby ThornDavis » Tue Apr 10, 2012 3:09 pm

hybrid theorist wrote:
ThornDavis wrote:The big difference is that in one instance you're talking about people who exploited global capitalism to further their own ends, and in the other you're talking about the people who are being crushed under that boot of global capitalism.

ALL bankers exploited global capitalism and made it shitty for the rest of us? Each and every one of them fucked things up individually? Can't remember who said the quote about "99% of lawyers giving the 1% a bad name", maybe that applies here.

Honestly, I think its pretty offensive to say "you're a banker, therefore you MUST be a terrible person, and worthy of death." Or at least no more offensive than saying "as we've said some nice things about the strikers, now I've got to say they should all be shot".

(If clarification is needed, I think bankers in general are cunts and public sector workers had some legitimate grievances, I'm not on the bankers side here any more than the people defending Liam Staceys right to free speech/be a rat-a-tat-tat are on his)


Two of the three examples you gave were about named individuals, so in those instances this argument about sweeping generalistions doesn't apply.

As for the bankers, well... for one thing the "99% of lawyers" gag surely justifies a sweeping generalisation (that's what makes the joke work), but either way there's a significant difference is between mocking people who have a great deal of money and power and privilege, and mocking those who don't. Regardless of the specifics of Clarkson's comment, it's not suprising that people enjoy a joke fired in the direction of society's most priveliged and yet raise their hackles when the same joke is aimed at the downtrodden.


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