Anyone else frustrated will BabyMetal?

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BangBang!!
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Re: Anyone else frustrated will BabyMetal?

Postby BangBang!! » Tue Jul 01, 2014 10:49 am

The implication again appears to be that anyone who watches Babymetal are perverts. Firstly, the schoolgirl thing in Japan is a bit more complex than 'infantalisation' but that doesn't allow for a nice bit of moral panic and hysteria. They may be more up front about it but don't for a minute think that Western culture is much better. Try watching the trailer for the last St Trinians movie and then get back to me.

Then of course there is the objectivising and sexulizing of women in society as a whole and rock music in particular. Perhaps we'd better not go down that route either. Warriors of Ghengis Khan anyone?,

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Re: Anyone else frustrated will BabyMetal?

Postby CherryInHove » Tue Jul 01, 2014 10:59 am

^ Mick Foley fan?

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BangBang!!
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Re: Anyone else frustrated will BabyMetal?

Postby BangBang!! » Tue Jul 01, 2014 11:48 am

I am indeed mate!

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Re: Anyone else frustrated will BabyMetal?

Postby CherryInHove » Tue Jul 01, 2014 11:49 am

Me too. Got his triple DVD set. He is an absolute legend.

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red death
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Re: Anyone else frustrated will BabyMetal?

Postby red death » Tue Jul 01, 2014 11:54 am

FFS I can't believe people are trying to justify Babymetal as anything other than a deeply cynical (and creepy) marketing ploy. Schoolgirls singing j-pop over metal doesn't make it metal.

Equally closing your eyes to the creepiness of a lot of Japanese culture (including this) doesn't make it right in the same way that alot of Western culture is f*cked up when it comes to sexualising young girls/women...
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Re: Anyone else frustrated will BabyMetal?

Postby IronBoosh » Tue Jul 01, 2014 11:55 am

:music-headbanger: To be honest it is the music I care about - it is a mixture that should not work but it does! Without the live band it wouldn't work, yet people still seem to focus on the 3 young singers! I can't wait to see them as I have seen their live DVD and their live show is fun and not at all sexually suggestive, and above all they make a hell of a noise! :music-headbanger:

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ThornDavis
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Re: Anyone else frustrated will BabyMetal?

Postby ThornDavis » Tue Jul 01, 2014 12:14 pm

I'm completely indifferent to Babymetal but I wonder whether red death's potent marriage of racist stereotyping, inept analysis of sexual politics and muddled grasp of authorial intent could lead to a revolution in cultural studies.

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BangBang!!
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Re: Anyone else frustrated will BabyMetal?

Postby BangBang!! » Tue Jul 01, 2014 12:16 pm

red death wrote:FFS I can't believe people are trying to justify Babymetal as anything other than a deeply cynical (and creepy) marketing ploy. Schoolgirls singing j-pop over metal doesn't make it metal.

Equally closing your eyes to the creepiness of a lot of Japanese culture (including this) doesn't make it right in the same way that alot of Western culture is f*cked up when it comes to sexualising young girls/women...



Deeply cynical? How about Steel Panther? How about Alice Cooper's show of torture and murder? 'frakk Like A Beast'? Versaille's lead guitarist is a cross dresser. I have no problem personally with any of these but It depends on your definition of cynical I suppose. They certainly got a reaction and recognition from their deliberate actions. Does playing bagpipes over metal count? How about rapping?

Closing your eyes to anything doesn't make it right but I'm not sure of the point. Are you saying we shouldn't have anything to do with Japan?

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Re: Anyone else frustrated will BabyMetal?

Postby PurpleDemon » Tue Jul 01, 2014 1:18 pm

red death wrote:FFS I can't believe people are trying to justify Babymetal as anything other than a deeply cynical (and creepy) marketing ploy. Schoolgirls singing j-pop over metal doesn't make it metal.

Equally closing your eyes to the creepiness of a lot of Japanese culture (including this) doesn't make it right in the same way that alot of Western culture is f*cked up when it comes to sexualising young girls/women...


Ah, of course. When young girls do anything ever, it's sexualised. Please, I bet you'd complain of sexualisation on a video of a woman walking into a bank.
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red death
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Re: Anyone else frustrated will BabyMetal?

Postby red death » Tue Jul 01, 2014 3:44 pm

PurpleDemon wrote:Ah, of course. When young girls do anything ever, it's sexualised. Please, I bet you'd complain of sexualisation on a video of a woman walking into a bank.


Ah the straw man argument - good work, but that isn't what I said. Do I think sexualisation of young girls is wrong - yes...ignore the cultural context if you prefer but that doesn't make it right.

BangBang!! wrote:Deeply cynical? How about Steel Panther? How about Alice Cooper's show of torture and murder? 'frakk Like A Beast'? Versaille's lead guitarist is a cross dresser. I have no problem personally with any of these but It depends on your definition of cynical I suppose. They certainly got a reaction and recognition from their deliberate actions. Does playing bagpipes over metal count? How about rapping?

Closing your eyes to anything doesn't make it right but I'm not sure of the point. Are you saying we shouldn't have anything to do with Japan?


Well I quite like bagpipes and metal... 8-)

The examples you give are not comparable and you know it. While they might work for part of the argument, they are not the whole picture.

But hey ho, each to their own...
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overagekid
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Re: Anyone else frustrated will BabyMetal?

Postby overagekid » Tue Jul 01, 2014 4:49 pm

red death wrote:FFS I can't believe people are trying to justify Babymetal as anything other than a deeply cynical (and creepy) marketing ploy. Schoolgirls singing j-pop over metal doesn't make it metal.

Equally closing your eyes to the creepiness of a lot of Japanese culture (including this) doesn't make it right in the same way that alot of Western culture is f*cked up when it comes to sexualising young girls/women...


1. "singing j-pop over metal doesn't make it metal." Who are you to decide what is or isn't metal? They're playing at a metal/rock festival, so I'd say that by definition they are at least partly metal.

2. "in the same way that alot of Western culture is f*cked up when it comes to sexualising young girls/women..." If you also had a problem with that, why aren't you bringing it up? The Defiled used to have scantily clad women on stage performing with them, and that was sexual. The Prodigy have a song called 'Smack My Bitch Up'. Why aren't you making equally big complaints about that?

3. "creepiness of a lot of Japanese culture" - That is a broad generalisation and as such isn't very helpful within an argument. If you're just saying that Japanese culture is creepy: that's a broad generalisation and kind of racist. If you're just saying they have a lot of creepy stuff; so does everywhere else.

Also, I'm not sure if the 'sexualising' of the girls in Babymetal is something you have mentioned or if other people have just assumed you mentioned it (if you haven't, please ignore the following statement) but I have yet to hear anyone mention how sexy they think the people in Babymetal are, or anything along those lines. Because they are school kids, which we're all very well aware of.

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Re: Anyone else frustrated will BabyMetal?

Postby Blackwater » Tue Jul 01, 2014 5:28 pm

BabyMetal are more Metal than Iron Maiden i mean for a start Bruce Dickinson wails and sings in a girly high pitch voice which kinda sounds like a poor version of Christina Aguilera! But i guess that can go for every power metal band ya know like Dragonforce, Sonata Arctica, Avantasia or Even Metal Bands with blatant pop vocalists like Nightwish, Delain and Within Temptation.

Anyway BabyMetal are brilliant and i'd rather be watching them than some ugly fat cu nt growling on stage like some sort of angsty teenager.
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red death
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Re: Anyone else frustrated will BabyMetal?

Postby red death » Tue Jul 01, 2014 5:40 pm

Ah if in doubt accuse someone of being racist. Calling aspects of Japanese culture creepy is not racist. I completely accept that there are equally f*cked up aspects to some parts of Western culture as I said. The fact that I call out one and not the other doesn't make either right!

Ad hominem attacks rather miss the point - the argument equivalent of playing the man rather than the ball.
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ThornDavis
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Re: Anyone else frustrated will BabyMetal?

Postby ThornDavis » Tue Jul 01, 2014 5:44 pm

Lol, yes you can't make generalisations based on negative cultural stereotypes without being called racist these days. It's political correctness gone mad.

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Stiv
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Re: Anyone else frustrated will BabyMetal?

Postby Stiv » Tue Jul 01, 2014 6:30 pm

42

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overagekid
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Re: Anyone else frustrated will BabyMetal?

Postby overagekid » Tue Jul 01, 2014 7:01 pm

ThornDavis wrote:Lol, yes you can't make generalisations based on negative cultural stereotypes without being called racist these days. It's political correctness gone mad.


Thank you dude.

And the counter-argument of "Oh, you're calling me a racist! THATS original!" Is a stupid argument. I said its a bit racist because what you were saying... was a bit racist. As Mr. ThornDavis explained in a far better way than I could.

Also, you've mentioned the Straw Man Fallacy and Ad hominem.
So I would just like to play the Fallacy Fallacy card. Just because someones argument includes a fallacy, does not mean their entire argument is wrong.

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Re: Anyone else frustrated will BabyMetal?

Postby onona » Tue Jul 01, 2014 7:09 pm

Foz wrote:Basically Music is a product and we can be as elitist as we want but unless a band is giving all their music and t-shirts and what not away for free, then you are looking at a commercialised, manufactured product. Some more than others but ALL of it in some way is a puppet of the industry and lets not kid ourselves by thinking it's not.


When I used the word product, I meant a creation by producers, as opposed to a band formed of people who got together and decided to mutually embark on a collaborative effort involving the music they love. It's fairly well known that the members of Babymetal are not even into metal - their existence is due entirely to a suit who made a decision to market them as such, and that makes them a cynical marketing ploy.

I'm genuinely surprised that metal fans, who are notoriously anti posers and allergic to anything half-arsed, would defend this band. But hey, Japanese schoolgirls.

metalicbear wrote:
The moral issue is only there if you choose to see it.

You see seedy schoolgirls prancing around on stage, I see fun j-pop/metal band giving a great performance.


Please point out where I said they're "seedy". Go on, I'm waiting.

The fact that you're choosing to see these things says more about you.


On the contrary, your assumptions about other people's perspectives says a lot about you.

I can't be bothered to get into a childish tit for tat over this. Suffice to say, if you're going to say that the primary consumers in the west of anything with Japanese schoolgirls in it isn't teenage boys and manchildren, then you're either deluding yourself, or being obstinate for the sake of it.

Lastly, to the person who said that there's an insinuation being made that people who like Babymetal are "perverts" - once again, don't put words in people's mouths. Ogling someone isn't anywhere near what could be considered a pervert. It's reasonably normal to ogle, while perversion is something else entirely.

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Re: Anyone else frustrated will BabyMetal?

Postby CherryInHove » Tue Jul 01, 2014 7:17 pm

onona wrote:When I used the word product, I meant a creation by producers, as opposed to a band formed of people who got together and decided to mutually embark on a collaborative effort involving the music they love. It's fairly well known that the members of Babymetal are not even into metal - their existence is due entirely to a suit who made a decision to market them as such, and that makes them a cynical marketing ploy.


So if someone plays you some new music, do you have to go and google the band and find out how they were formed before you can decide if you like it or not?

Most people on here have said multiple times that they don't care one iota how Babymetal were formed, they like the way the music sounds and so they're looking forward to seeing them live. Why on earth does it matter how they are formed if they make a pleasing sound and put on a good show?

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Re: Anyone else frustrated will BabyMetal?

Postby Foz » Tue Jul 01, 2014 7:43 pm

Personally i find how openly manufactured they are refreshingly honest. Out of interest when we're talking about the sexualisation and perviness of it all, are the female fans pervy or are we just talking about men? Because men couldn't possibly be a fan of this group without getting their jollies at the same time, right?
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Re: Anyone else frustrated will BabyMetal?

Postby Epic Failure » Tue Jul 01, 2014 7:56 pm

I think everyone's overlooking the fact that they just aren't any good (yes, yes, I know, that's just my opinion).

Also, it isn't racist to say that you find aspects of a culture creepy. That's your personal view of what an aspect of that culture is. It's like saying you find Michael Bay's infatuation with women in skimpy tops running away from explosions creepy. Not everyone will agree with you, but that's a personal choice thing.

It's probably racist if you say "God, the Japanese are all really sick perverts who love naked schoolgirls". But no one is saying that.


On the subject of whether it is cynical marketing - well of course it is. But so is 95% of stuff that is marketed, whether it is One Direction or Maiden. That's kind of the point of marketing - to encourage the target audience to invest in the product. Some people are just more open about it than others.
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Re: Anyone else frustrated will BabyMetal?

Postby BangBang!! » Tue Jul 01, 2014 8:07 pm

Basically, some people are taking this band totally out of context with no thought given to the culture and background of where they come from and how they arrived where they are now. This a fairly decent and interesting article that might help.

http://donotcrossthestreams.wordpress.c ... babymetal/


They are from Japan , not the UK, that is more important than it seems. But by all means carry on with the insinuations if it make you happy.

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Re: Anyone else frustrated will BabyMetal?

Postby Epic Failure » Tue Jul 01, 2014 8:17 pm

BangBang!! wrote:Basically, some people are taking this band totally out of context with no thought given to the culture and background of where they come from and how they arrived where they are now. This a fairly decent and interesting article that might help.

http://donotcrossthestreams.wordpress.c ... babymetal/


They are from Japan , not the UK, that is more important than it seems. But by all means carry on with the insinuations if it make you happy.


I'm not entirely understanding your point here. Understanding where they are from and the cultural background that inspires that doesn't invalidate someone's opinion about aspects of that culture. The same can be said about pretty much any culture. It's absolutely a mistake to think that people outside this country won't find some things we do odd. Christ, I find some of the things we do odd.
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Re: Anyone else frustrated will BabyMetal?

Postby BangBang!! » Tue Jul 01, 2014 8:37 pm

My point is that manufactured idol bands are commonplace in Japan. It's simply how a lot of music is done there. We might THINK it is odd but that doesn't necessarily mean that is IS odd.

Whether anyone wants to admit it or not there is very definitely an underlying implication that a lot of males are going to watch them simply to perv, in the colloquial sense, (or ogle if you like) over young girls. It's insulting and uncalled for.

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Re: Anyone else frustrated will BabyMetal?

Postby ThornDavis » Tue Jul 01, 2014 9:42 pm

Epic Failure wrote:I think everyone's overlooking the fact that they just aren't any good (yes, yes, I know, that's just my opinion).

Also, it isn't racist to say that you find aspects of a culture creepy. That's your personal view of what an aspect of that culture is. It's like saying you find Michael Bay's infatuation with women in skimpy tops running away from explosions creepy. Not everyone will agree with you, but that's a personal choice thing.


The difference is that you're talking about a particular cultural artefact vs a generalisation about a culture as a whole. If someone articulated why Babymetal specifically was creepy, then your point would stand. Saying 'it's creepy because... well... it's Japan and they are well creepy' is... if not racist then at the very least problematic. It's like saying "Rammstein use aspects of fascist imagery in their music and shows - they and their audience must be Nazis because parts of German culture are steeped in Nazism". Each item deserves to be investigated on its own merits - we credit Rammstein with some sophistication beyond the lamest cultural stereotype and should make the same allowance for any other band. If the case can be made for Babymetal specifically being creepy, people should go ahead and do it with out invoking the stereotype of a bunch of humourless Japanese businessmen all carrying samurai swords on the bullet train and eating sandwiches made out of schoolgirls' nappies, or whatever.

To be honest, the most aggravating thing about red demons post is the complete lack of substance whatsoever:

FFS I can't believe people are trying to justify Babymetal as anything other than a deeply cynical


"Right folks, my reading is the only one that counts and anyone who disagrees with me is wrong"

(and creepy)


"and probably a paedophile"

marketing ploy.


Irrelevant - the circumstances behind the creation of a book/ painting/ song have no relevance to people's reacton to it. Some great works of art have been done for the money, many terrible ones have been created for passion. What matters is what people take away from it and if people say they're not turned on by the girls and sincerely enjoy the music I'm prepared to take them at their word.

Schoolgirls singing j-pop over metal doesn't make it metal.


Irrelevant - whether something is 'metal' or not is hardly the sole arbiter of its worth.

Equally closing your eyes to the creepiness of a lot of Japanese culture (including this)


Lazy stereotyping, and every culture has problematic elements, but that doesn't make everything produced by that culture the same - the Japanese don't operate as a hive mind any more than we do. If you can make a case for Babymetal being creepy beyond "Eurgh you know - Japan and schoolgirls man" then do it. Don't just rely on Japan = creepy therefore this = creepy.

doesn't make it right in the same way that alot of Western culture is f*cked up when it comes to sexualising young girls/women...


Indeed - but within our own culture we address each case on its own merits. It would be foolish to argue that Dora the Explorer was somehow problematic just because Bratz exist and actually are problematic. Don't talk about every item produced by every Japanese person as though they're all the same - if you have an issue with Babymetal, articulate it using examples from Babymetal - don't just back it up by invoking a tired generalisation.

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Re: Anyone else frustrated will BabyMetal?

Postby PurpleDemon » Tue Jul 01, 2014 10:25 pm

Babymetal are good. Overanalyse it all you like, but they're a good band, and should be silly fun live.
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