Let Us Discuss What Ye Be Thinking Right Now

For all your Forum Fun and Games :)
User avatar
ThornDavis
Posts: 1351
Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2011 1:44 pm
Location: Oxford

Re: Let Us Discuss What Ye Be Thinking Right Now

Postby ThornDavis » Mon Jun 02, 2014 9:32 am

hybrid theorist wrote:
ThornDavis wrote:
Black Wizard wrote:Tony Blair would probably support an illegal invasion of UKIP headquarters.


As would most sane folk, surely.

I don't understand why some folk are so rabidly anti UKIP.
Well, I do, but I can't understand why they don't feel the same about a lot of other stuff.

I had a friend I didn't know even cared about politics saying she's deleted people from her facebook for voting UKIP.
But not the bedroom tax Tories, tuition fee liars Lib Dems, or illegal war Labour.


FWIW, pretty much everyone I know was frothing at the mouth at all those things, too. I mean a few million people marched on London over the illegal war, and it would have cost Blair the election if he'd had remotely credible opposition. One friend of mine who used to work for the Lib Dems press office was completely mortified by Clegg's volte-face - it destroyed the party in his eyes in much the same way as discovering a beloved spouse was cheating on you. Then only time I've ever seen it defended was by a friend who works at Imperial, who pointed out that Clegg would never have made the promise if he'd seen the figures. It was something that just couldn't be done.

So it's not like anyone got a free pass on those things. But with UKIP, it's like all their ideas and policies fall into one or more of those categories - jingoistic, bullying, or a fatuous easy answer that would be unworkable in reality.

User avatar
Black Wizard
Posts: 6189
Joined: Sun May 23, 2010 5:06 pm
Location: Reading

Re: Let Us Discuss What Ye Be Thinking Right Now

Postby Black Wizard » Mon Jun 02, 2014 9:44 am

Well one of UKIP's policies is to restrict immigration by reintroducing work permits for EU citizens from outside the UK which, to be fair, worked absolutely fine in the past.

User avatar
ThornDavis
Posts: 1351
Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2011 1:44 pm
Location: Oxford

Re: Let Us Discuss What Ye Be Thinking Right Now

Postby ThornDavis » Mon Jun 02, 2014 10:01 am

Indeed! In the form of fingerprints and other biometric data to be stored on a card with a photograph for new arrivals. But I remember nationwide outrage at the idea of mandatory identity cards prior to the last election; in fact if the coalition had any electoral mandate at all, it was scrapping that idea, which they did. The only difference now is that it will apply to them and not us, and I think that double standard highlights the unpleasantness of UKIP and its supporters more than it defends it.

You mention that it worked well in the past, this system where a portion of the population are identified as not belonging here, scapegoated for causing economic decline, have their rights restricted, and forced to carry papers identifying them as not belonging. Perhaps you're right. I suppose it also depends on what you mean by "it's worked absolutely fine in the past" - I imagine that that was almost certainly a matter of perspective.

User avatar
houston404
Posts: 5213
Joined: Sat May 14, 2011 10:36 pm

Re: Let Us Discuss What Ye Be Thinking Right Now

Postby houston404 » Mon Jun 02, 2014 12:15 pm

The one thing that I've hated about the rise of UKIP is the way other political parties have handled it. The Tories and Labour arguing that their message hasn't gotten through to enlighten the masses and that people have voted UKIP because we don't know what's best for us. I know it's PR and they wouldn't admit it's because people don't prefer UKIP policies or dislike them but acting like they have a sense of entitlement as people's default vote is annoying. It's been that way for donkeys years with people voting for Labour or Lib Dem if theres a Tory government in power and vice versa but it's something that career politicians assume this is the accepted way our political system works. Don't get me wrong I'm not saying UKIP wasn't a protest vote but still.

This whole Clegg/Oakeshott fiasco is quite funny really, no doubt Clegg is the scapegoat for damaging the Lib Dem's but changing leader will do little, apart from the odd MP who hasn't been widely recognised as fighting for Lib Dem values in the coalition, the whole party is damaged goods and will be a spent political force for years.
Oh joy another game of truth or troll
Your/You're, it's all the same to me

User avatar
shivcakes
Posts: 570
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2011 7:49 pm
Location: Galway, Ireland
Contact:

Re: Let Us Discuss What Ye Be Thinking Right Now

Postby shivcakes » Mon Jun 02, 2014 1:12 pm

ThornDavis wrote: swanning around like they're Labour in '97

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

I have no idea what Labour did in 1997, because I was busy dancing to the Spice Girls over here in PaddyLand but this made me crack up.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
♫ ♫ ♫ life is ours, we live it our way ♫ ♫ ♫
SONISPHERE 2014!!! CAMP LOOOONNNEERRRRRR ♥♥♥♥♥

User avatar
shivcakes
Posts: 570
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2011 7:49 pm
Location: Galway, Ireland
Contact:

Re: Let Us Discuss What Ye Be Thinking Right Now

Postby shivcakes » Mon Jun 02, 2014 1:28 pm

My two cents on this UKIP thing; they are being voted in by a lot of people who don't understand politics, never cared before and are thinking "hey, yeah, they're taking our jobs!"
These decisions are probably made without really thinking in depth about what immigration/integration etc means, and what game UKIP are playing at. I mean I dunno, but it seems to me lots of people are uneducated and are basically being bred as sheep to work in crappy factories and not THINK about anything. Now I'm not there, and of course I'm not saying you're all uneducated :lol: but there is that element in the average council estate.... Whose residents are probably the ones voting UKIP because they live in bad areas that tend to breed racism and violence.

That's my take on it from what I've heard. I obviously don't get to see it on Irish news (I get to be joyously abused by being forced to look at Enda Kenny's face instead) and I can't rely on FB posts but I haven't read too much in to it apart from a glance at their manifesto and such!

Is that a fair assessment? Or not?
♫ ♫ ♫ life is ours, we live it our way ♫ ♫ ♫
SONISPHERE 2014!!! CAMP LOOOONNNEERRRRRR ♥♥♥♥♥

User avatar
Black Wizard
Posts: 6189
Joined: Sun May 23, 2010 5:06 pm
Location: Reading

Re: Let Us Discuss What Ye Be Thinking Right Now

Postby Black Wizard » Mon Jun 02, 2014 1:38 pm

ThornDavis wrote:Indeed! In the form of fingerprints and other biometric data to be stored on a card with a photograph for new arrivals. But I remember nationwide outrage at the idea of mandatory identity cards prior to the last election; in fact if the coalition had any electoral mandate at all, it was scrapping that idea, which they did. The only difference now is that it will apply to them and not us, and I think that double standard highlights the unpleasantness of UKIP and its supporters more than it defends it.

You mention that it worked well in the past, this system where a portion of the population are identified as not belonging here, scapegoated for causing economic decline, have their rights restricted, and forced to carry papers identifying them as not belonging. Perhaps you're right. I suppose it also depends on what you mean by "it's worked absolutely fine in the past" - I imagine that that was almost certainly a matter of perspective.

I'm not entirely sure if you're being serious here or not. Did work permits really involve fingerprints and other biometric data? :?

houston404 wrote:The one thing that I've hated about the rise of UKIP is the way other political parties have handled it.

The SNP had handled it in a very dignified manner, with the first minister blaming the BBC for UKIP having a seat in Scotland. :lol: UKIP's response was to thank the SNP for giving them so much attention in the three days before the election.

User avatar
ThornDavis
Posts: 1351
Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2011 1:44 pm
Location: Oxford

Re: Let Us Discuss What Ye Be Thinking Right Now

Postby ThornDavis » Mon Jun 02, 2014 2:09 pm

Black Wizard wrote:I'm not entirely sure if you're being serious here or not. Did work permits really involve fingerprints and other biometric data? :?


'do' or 'did'? I'm sure there was a time when they didn't, but yes, these days that's how it's done.

edit: although when I was googling to check that, it turns out that this is already a thing the government have done to stem the influence of UKIP. So... hmm.

User avatar
Black Wizard
Posts: 6189
Joined: Sun May 23, 2010 5:06 pm
Location: Reading

Re: Let Us Discuss What Ye Be Thinking Right Now

Postby Black Wizard » Mon Jun 02, 2014 8:57 pm

Well I'm not trying to justify the government keeping all sorts of unnecessary information about people but if a work permit consisted of a document with the permit-holders picture and non-biometric details then I don't see any problems with that.

hybrid theorist
Posts: 15851
Joined: Thu Mar 12, 2009 9:37 pm
Location: Leeds, YORKSHIRE

Re: Let Us Discuss What Ye Be Thinking Right Now

Postby hybrid theorist » Mon Jun 02, 2014 9:24 pm

ThornDavis wrote:
hybrid theorist wrote:I don't understand why some folk are so rabidly anti UKIP.
Well, I do, but I can't understand why they don't feel the same about a lot of other stuff.

I had a friend I didn't know even cared about politics saying she's deleted people from her facebook for voting UKIP.
But not the bedroom tax Tories, tuition fee liars Lib Dems, or illegal war Labour.

FWIW, pretty much everyone I know was frothing at the mouth at all those things, too.

So it's not like anyone got a free pass on those things. But with UKIP, it's like all their ideas and policies fall into one or more of those categories - jingoistic, bullying, or a fatuous easy answer that would be unworkable in reality.

I don't even know what other policies they have, apart from "Leave the EU and stop letting EU migrants in, (unless they're really good at something, the same way we treat non-EU migrants)."
In all honesty, since Farage said their 2010 manifesto was a load of rubbish, I genuinely don't know if they have any domestic policies.

I'm not saying I like UKIP at all. I don't. they're easily the worst of the big 4 parties.

But I don't see them as some sort of evil monster. They're just a party that attracts loads of racists, a few that have genuine concerns about the EU, and loads of people who just want easy answers.

TBH, I agree with Houston a bit, I don't like the way the other parties have dealt with it. Instead of going "don't chat shite Farage, the EU is good, and here's why", they mainly seem to have just gone "trust us, the EU is good. there's no need to explain it to the riff raff though"

As someone who's interested in politics, I think it'll be interesting to see how this ends up. will they hurt the tories more than labour? will they replace the lib dems as the 3rd party/protest vote? will they die on their arse if they fail at the general election? Perhaps most importantly, will the consensus swing to the right to appeal to UKIP supporters, or will Labour/Lib Dems go the other way?
Image
:animals-cow:

User avatar
Black Wizard
Posts: 6189
Joined: Sun May 23, 2010 5:06 pm
Location: Reading

Re: Let Us Discuss What Ye Be Thinking Right Now

Postby Black Wizard » Mon Jun 02, 2014 9:32 pm

I think they'll get maybe five seats at Westminster next year. Lib Dems will lose a load of seats but I don't see the status quo being affected.

User avatar
kipper64
Posts: 18552
Joined: Mon Mar 09, 2009 5:30 pm
Location: Glasgow
Contact:

Re: Let Us Discuss What Ye Be Thinking Right Now

Postby kipper64 » Mon Jun 02, 2014 9:35 pm

Don't think they've laid anything out concrete since Farage decided that the 2010 manifesto was ass piss, just the odd talk here and there of NHS privitization and the legalizing of handguns because New Labour clamping down on gun laws after the dunblane shootings was a 'total overreaction' according to Farage. So you know, all great stuff :roll:

I'm proper surprised they managed to get the 6th MEP for Scotland, though it's pretty much entirely down to lack of people voting, in particular Lib Dem supporters probably not voting at all. Though there wasn't a lot between them and Greens getting it instead, and even less between SNP getting a 3rd seat Still though, David Coburn is a fanny.

I suppose the worry is where those seats will come from, because the tories actually did okay in the EU elections considering they are the party in power, and if they win a decent amount of seats and somehow manage to make a coalition work again but with UKIP instead, that'd be pretty grim. It's unlikely mind you, but the thought of it makes me want to throw up in my mouth a wee bit.
Image

User avatar
Black Wizard
Posts: 6189
Joined: Sun May 23, 2010 5:06 pm
Location: Reading

Re: Let Us Discuss What Ye Be Thinking Right Now

Postby Black Wizard » Mon Jun 02, 2014 9:43 pm

Would be entertaining at least. Can you imagine Nigel Farage as Deputy Prime Minister?

User avatar
Epic Failure
Posts: 172
Joined: Mon May 05, 2014 1:26 am
Location: Manchester

Re: Let Us Discuss What Ye Be Thinking Right Now

Postby Epic Failure » Mon Jun 02, 2014 10:01 pm

Anyone who doesn't think they are repugnant should look at some of the people who were standing for them and some of their more "outlandish" views.

They did well in these elections for a number of reasons:

1) No-one really cares about local elections or Euro elections. You can see that by the turnout. The people who WILL turnout in those kind of elections are the die hard nutters, of which UKIP clearly has some Joe Bloggs who sort of supports the Tories/Labour won't make the effort.
2) The weather. It was pretty appalling across a lot of the country. Again, this will impact on numbers voting.
3) The Euro elections using PR. First Past The Post will not do them any favours.
4) People misguidedly thinking that voting UKIP was a "protest" against the other parties. There's literally nothing in our political system to record that. People who voted UKIP not really knowing what they stood for have given them a mandate.
5) The BNP vote collapsing. The 6% or so who voted BNP at the last election fairly clearly will have drifted to UKIP.

UKIP won't do anything close to as well at the general election. A handful of seats would be a very good night for them there.
Stoppin and stayin, I would if I could

hybrid theorist
Posts: 15851
Joined: Thu Mar 12, 2009 9:37 pm
Location: Leeds, YORKSHIRE

Re: Let Us Discuss What Ye Be Thinking Right Now

Postby hybrid theorist » Mon Jun 02, 2014 10:08 pm

kipper64 wrote:I suppose the worry is where those seats will come from, because the tories actually did okay in the EU elections considering they are the party in power, and if they win a decent amount of seats and somehow manage to make a coalition work again but with UKIP instead, that'd be pretty grim. It's unlikely mind you, but the thought of it makes me want to throw up in my mouth a wee bit.

Yeah, that would be horrific. If that happened, everyone would by crying back to the Lib Dems, all is forgiven! :lol:
Image
:animals-cow:

User avatar
Black Wizard
Posts: 6189
Joined: Sun May 23, 2010 5:06 pm
Location: Reading

Re: Let Us Discuss What Ye Be Thinking Right Now

Postby Black Wizard » Mon Jun 02, 2014 10:13 pm

hybrid theorist wrote:Yeah, that would be horrific. If that happened, everyone would by crying back to the Lib Dems, all is forgiven! :lol:

If the Conservatives were the single largest party after the last election then I don't think you can say that everybody hates them. I don't get the portrayal of them as being the enemy at all. :?

User avatar
kipper64
Posts: 18552
Joined: Mon Mar 09, 2009 5:30 pm
Location: Glasgow
Contact:

Re: Let Us Discuss What Ye Be Thinking Right Now

Postby kipper64 » Mon Jun 02, 2014 10:22 pm

A lot of it is to do with the past in terms of how Scotland and parts of the north of England etc.., view them, and coupled with the fact that whilst they may have had the most seats, they didn't have a majority, nor did they have much more than 1/3rd of actual votes cast, so it's not like they had a lot of people behind them to begin with. Since coming into power as well it's not like they've been implementing much in terms of popular policies. I suppose some would argue some of which is necessary, but regardless it's not going to make them many friends.
Image

hybrid theorist
Posts: 15851
Joined: Thu Mar 12, 2009 9:37 pm
Location: Leeds, YORKSHIRE

Re: Let Us Discuss What Ye Be Thinking Right Now

Postby hybrid theorist » Mon Jun 02, 2014 10:27 pm

Black Wizard wrote:
hybrid theorist wrote:Yeah, that would be horrific. If that happened, everyone would by crying back to the Lib Dems, all is forgiven! :lol:

If the Conservatives were the single largest party after the last election then I don't think you can say that everybody hates them. I don't get the portrayal of them as being the enemy at all. :?

well, it seems to me (but maybe it's just the people I know, tv I watch etc) that it's either you vote tory, or you dislike them. there seems to be more people who are ambivalent towards labour/lib dems/greens/the rest.

UKIP are turbo charged tories. so if you didn't vote for them, you really, really don't like them.

maybe "everyone" was hyperbole, but everyone saying how much they hated the lib dems for joining with the tories would beg for that opportunity again if a Conservative/UKIP govt was in place.

I don't actually think the Lib Dems have done that bad a job, other than PR. they got an awful lot of stuff in that they wanted, it was just the tuition fees U turn that killed them.
Image
:animals-cow:

User avatar
kipper64
Posts: 18552
Joined: Mon Mar 09, 2009 5:30 pm
Location: Glasgow
Contact:

Re: Let Us Discuss What Ye Be Thinking Right Now

Postby kipper64 » Mon Jun 02, 2014 10:35 pm

I think it was part in them joining with the tories which was immediately followed by not only a U turn on tuition fees, because the majority of lib dem MPs pre-election pledged they'd vote against tution fees and yet the ended up being tripled. They promised a referendum on the voting system to PR and we got AV as a watered down alternative, and whilst they've certainly done some good in getting tax thresholds lower (despite the fact that is the weakest form of combating income inequality), it made them appear pretty weak as a party. Lead Lib Dems in government like Vince Cable and Danny Alexander come across as pretty equally incompetent to boot. I think it's a perception thing more than anything, the tuition fee thing doesn't affect scotland at all, yet they've lost a shedload of support here and there's plenty of areas in Scotland who normally have decent Lib Dem support.
Image

User avatar
houston404
Posts: 5213
Joined: Sat May 14, 2011 10:36 pm

Re: Let Us Discuss What Ye Be Thinking Right Now

Postby houston404 » Tue Jun 03, 2014 10:25 am

I think the problems for the Lib Dems is that the honeymoon period of the government is over, 2013 was the last glut of policy and the last time the Lib Dems could separate themselves and say "this is our policy, we pushed for this" to help differentiate between themselves and the Tories in government. Since then people assume both parties are one and the same in the government and that the Tories and Lib Dem's happily co-exist, not damaging for the Tories as they hold most of the levers of power and their agenda mostly gets through, bad for the Lib Dem's and they have little power and they are being dragged along by the Tories.

I can't see UKIP and the Tories forming a coalition, even though they are both on the right side of politics the gulf between them is large. Farage's more radical policies (if you look at his policies compared to Labour/Tories they are radical) would have to be moderated which would see him as a failure to his electorate and Cameron would have to accommodate a right wing agenda further to the right than most of his party are willing to think reasonable. The only reason the Tory/Lib Dem coalition worked was that Cameron was more willing to shift a bit to centre left than far right.
Oh joy another game of truth or troll
Your/You're, it's all the same to me

User avatar
ThornDavis
Posts: 1351
Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2011 1:44 pm
Location: Oxford

Re: Let Us Discuss What Ye Be Thinking Right Now

Postby ThornDavis » Thu Jun 05, 2014 11:44 am

I set myself up in my boss's office today, as she said she was going to be working from home. I figured that it was a bit more comfortable than my desk, and also that I could break wind with impunity. Moments after a pretty intense session of that, she walked in, having changed her mind about staying at home. Quite tense now.

hybrid theorist
Posts: 15851
Joined: Thu Mar 12, 2009 9:37 pm
Location: Leeds, YORKSHIRE

Re: Let Us Discuss What Ye Be Thinking Right Now

Postby hybrid theorist » Thu Jun 05, 2014 12:16 pm

I genuinely don't know how much of your stories are made up and how much are real Thorn
Image
:animals-cow:

User avatar
ThornDavis
Posts: 1351
Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2011 1:44 pm
Location: Oxford

Re: Let Us Discuss What Ye Be Thinking Right Now

Postby ThornDavis » Thu Jun 05, 2014 12:26 pm

That one was true, except that it wasn't that tense. She did seem quite suprised to find me in her office, though. I thought it kind of made sense for me to be there, given that I want her job.

hybrid theorist
Posts: 15851
Joined: Thu Mar 12, 2009 9:37 pm
Location: Leeds, YORKSHIRE

Re: Let Us Discuss What Ye Be Thinking Right Now

Postby hybrid theorist » Thu Jun 05, 2014 9:48 pm

I'm thinking, "shittin hell, Sonisphere is nearly here, how did that happen? I've not even bought a tent yet!"
Image
:animals-cow:

User avatar
welshAC_81
Posts: 9410
Joined: Tue Jul 28, 2009 5:58 pm
Location: Bridgend
Contact:

Re: Let Us Discuss What Ye Be Thinking Right Now

Postby welshAC_81 » Thu Jun 05, 2014 9:52 pm

hybrid theorist wrote:I'm thinking, "shittin hell, Sonisphere is nearly here, how did that happen? I've not even bought a tent yet!"

its 28 days if you're getting there thursday. eeeeeeeeep!
Image Image


Return to “Arcade”